Yes, I would agree.

Any disagreement probably comes from the nuanced usage of ritual. For example, we observe an advent season with the lighting of candles in a traditional looking advent wreath. We do this every year, it is “tradition” and it is “ritual.” In an Evangelical Non-denominational church it is also somewhat “unusual.” I think we employ this in such a way as to add meaning to our time of worship. On the other hand, a lot of liberal churches use advent wreaths in similar ways, but they end up being what you describe - meaningless, shallow, and maybe even problematic if people see them as efficacious. So, here is an example of a ritual that could go either way… LNS

I see you’ve met my lovely wife Darlene! Well that’s good, she loves the repartee.

I do agree with you, Lon, that humans are designed to appreciate traditions and rituals. The 4th of July is a favorite, and we’ve raised our kids with “McCallum traditions” like opening presents on Christmas Eve. I recently taught Galatians 4:1-11 and pointed out my Scottish heritage where the traditions of bagpipes and kilts-without-underwear may seem strange to some, but not to a real Scotsman!

It is mostly true that the ritual doesn’t matter, but the meaning attached does. I say “mostly”, because it’s clear in Hebrews that the audience returning to the rituals & traditions of the Old Testament sacrificial system — even merely to please their neighbors — is tantamount to rejecting Jesus, since Jesus was the “substance” of all those “shadows” (c.f., Heb.10).

I think the Confederate flag is a modern-day Hebrews 10 corollary. People display it and say, “It means ‘independence’, not ‘racism’.” But they can’t control the hateful power of that symbol, and they are affected by the symbolic racism when someone breaks their nose!

Currently our church is receiving great condemnation from a someone offended that Xenos baptized her adult son when he became a Christian. Untold thousands of Christians were burned at the stake for adult baptism (the “Anabaptists”). Baptism and communion offend, but Jesus wants us to stand up & get persecuted for the important messages these rituals convey to the world around us.

Because rituals & traditions have so much power, Christians should not embrace them thoughtlessly, and I’m sure you agree on this point. If I embrace the liturgy of the “High Church”, I shouldn’t be surprised when I can’t reach people in this secular culture. Those traditions & rituals made sense in the Middle Ages perhaps, but why erect a barrier of ancient Christian culture against today’s world? Paul says, “I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.”

And this is my point, above: “the secular pressures gathered against Christianity and churches everywhere demands — necessitates — a thorough reevaluation of the traditions of the church. The institutions of the Renaissance simply will not work in today’s world.” Yes, traditions may be benign, but when they alienate us from the world around, they should go away. What’s important is the Gospel.

Just as a caveat, I think the older generation (say, WWII and before) is in a different position: their generations are comfortable with High Church rituals, so by all means go ahead! And not all the Gen-Xers or Millenials are alienated from ritual, BUT MOST ARE, and this is why it’s time to change things & drop the unnecessary things in order to reach the world for Jesus.

Would we not agree?

Between my second post and your’s I put 2 and 2 together as to how you fit with Xenos… so just so things are “fair” show my avatar to Keith and he can fill you in.

I’m not one to employ many rituals myself… with the exception of you typical Evangelical Non-denominational type. I was just “arguing” for what I see as balance.

I was happy to see you respond so quickly!! It helps sharpen my mind when I discuss these issues with others. I appreciate the civil dialog! And I enjoy having to not only think through these things again, but also enjoy having to wrestle with putting them into words so others understand. As I’m sure you can tell, I am not a gifted writer. I’d rather dialog in person because I speak way more eloquently than I write. Ah, well, I will do my best.

Again, I encourage you to search the Scriptures on this issue. My example of the relationship between my husband and I was just an analogy, and all analogies break down at some point. Dealing directly with the Bible is a much better way of discussing this issue, imho.

And yes, Jesus does prescribe 2 rituals - but my point is, that is all He prescribes us to do as far as rituals are concerned. As a matter of fact, after being steeped in the Law and the OT rituals that went along with them, it is almost shocking to see the absence
of any others. It is a glaring omission.

It is also interesting to note how these two rituals are carried out. Baptism is a one time ritual - just once after you receive Christ. Not repetitive in the least. And the description of communion is even more amazing. Instead of a formal and somber thing, it is a joyous occasion practiced daily as groups of believers gathered, in large groups as we see in Acts 2, but most often in small groups. No priest or professional clergy needed. As a matter of fact, there are no longer any priests or clergy. They have been done away with because now the only mediator we need is Jesus. (1 Tim 2:5)

In addition, the NT writers have a lot to say to those coming into the NT church who were “spying out their freedom.” (Gal 2:4.) These “false brethren” were coming in behind Paul to add works to the grace message that Paul preached to them. They were telling them that, yes, Christ died to redeem them as a free gift, but now that they were believers, they needed to keep the man-made traditions, which included circumcision and other rituals. Paul said these guys were trying to “bring us back into bondage.” They were adding law to grace. And in doing so, clouding the message of grace and grace alone.

Add this to Hebrews 8-10 and to God’s thoughts there on the the role of Law and the continuation of rituals and there is a powerful argument for the dispensing of all rituals save two - baptism and communion because they are prescribed by the Lord, but rituals very different than those seen in the OT.

Elsewhere Paul calls traditions and the law “elemental things.”
But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
You observe days and months and seasons and years.
I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
Galatians 4:9-11 (NASB)
See also Col 2.

Now, I realize you probably don’t believe that these rituals are necessary for salvation or even necessary to walk as a believer, or necessary to be a “good” Christian. You mention that they have significance and contain deep meaning to you. I understand this and can appreciate your feelings on it. And I’m not even saying these things are wrong. But we need to be very careful not to emphasize them, as you mention yourself.

And that is why there is a danger here. Others do NOT understand, particularly the nonchristian. They observe Christians participating in rituals, liturgy, and traditions and believe participating in these is what provides salvation, or what makes you “holy,” or what makes you a “good” Christian. Christianity is very much misunderstood by Christians and nonChristians alike. Many, if not most, view it as a “religion” with religion being defined as, “a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.”

And the Bible takes exception when people teach that by doing these things, praying this way, avoiding this over here and that over there, is what provides salvation or even makes you more holy. Christianity is a relationship, not a religion, as I’m sure you agree. It is the opportunity to have a relationship with the Creator God of the universe without having to perform rituals that makes it so significantly different than any religion. When we participate in ritual, it is often misleading. Mind you, I’m not saying it is purposely misleading. But people expect to see liturgy and ritual because they expect to see a religion. They are not helpful in leading people into a relationship with Jesus, again, in my opinion. My main ministry is reaching the unchurched. To them, ritual and liturgy defines Christianity. I strive repeatedly to explain that there IS no jumping through hoops needed, merely faith that the death of Christ on the cross paid for your sin, and if you ask that his death apply to you, then you now have a relationship with Him. “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith.”

In the end, what I am saying is, although I don’t believe there is anything wrong with ritual per se, it cannot be the emphasis. And they do often cloud the issue of the message of grace, particularly to the nonchristian. For the Christian, the mistake that is often made is that by participating in rituals, etc, it makes you more successful and mature. It makes them feel good. (Please understand, I am NOT saying this describes you. I am saying it describes many.) The measure of maturity is the ability to love others as Christ loved us. And this is much more difficult to do than observing a tradition. It is why so many Christians will substitute tradition, ritual, and liturgy for going out and sacrificially loving others. (Again, I am NOT speaking of you.)

Thank you for dialoging with me on this. I hope to see more of your comments here and elsewhere on this site.

Boy, do I wish I could write better!

Your sister-in-Christ, Darlene

Thanks for encouraging the dialogue. And since we’re disagreeing, I’ll start with your claim that “ANY rituals we use are a replacement for real relating with God.” This is both a false dichotomy and a false premise. The false dichotomy is between ritual and relationship and the false premise is that “any” ritual is a replacement. In fact, you acknowledged that the biblical example shows at least two rituals, therefore defeating the “any ritual” claim.

A ritual is simply the practice of a rite, a rite is simply a particular form or system of religious or other ceremonial practice. Therefore rituals are, in and of themselves, neutral. They certainly are abused – no argument there. But let’s not condemn the rite based on its abuse by some… shall we condemn alcohol based on is abuse by some?

You offered the relationship of you and your husband as an example. You again set up the false dichotomy between ritual and relationship. Would it really be all that weird and stilting if you read a Shakespearean sonnet to him (a poem written by someone else) - ok, maybe it would be weird… but it’s not wrong. If that’s all you did, then yes, it would be wrong… if somehow you thought you had to do that to be a good wife, then yes, it would be works not relationship - but that would be the abuse of the method, not the method itself.

With that in mind I maintain my point that the issue is the meaning placed within rituals and traditions and how they are employed. Rituals and traditions can be very powerful, very meaningful as long as they are not given the status of being efficacious themselves.

I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. However, I must respectfully disagree on a few of your points.

It is true that the NT church did have rituals - but only the 2 you mentioned: baptism and communion. There are no others. And compared to the rituals prescribed in the OT under the Law, it is a dramatic difference. “The Law is a tutor to lead us to Christ.” ANY rituals we use are a replacement for real relating with God. Rituals in the OT were “shadows of things to come.”

“When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. ”
Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

As an example, I do not set up certain rituals when relating with my husband. I can walk right into my husband’s presence and relate freely with him. Were I to suddenly introduce a ritual (or rituals), such as singing a certain song, standing and sitting a certain number of times, or reading a certain poem or other piece of literature written by someone else, he would consider it a formal and stilted thing, not to mention weird. He would say, “Why don’t you just talk to me?” We just don’t relate to people like that.

The death of Christ removed ANY barrier that exists between us and God, once we have chosen to be covered by His blood. I can now call God, “Abba, Father.” To relate to God in any formal or ritualistic way is to say that Christ’s death on the cross was “nice” but that we really prefer to go back and relate with Him the way people did in the OT. That’s a problem because Christ made that “obsolete.” We are no longer under the Law.

Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 4:16 (NASB)

I would encourage you to study Hebrews 8-10. It makes a way better argument on this subject than I could ever do.

But thank you very much for your comments. I hope you post more.