Questioning Traditions
What the *#$! Is Wrong With Cussing?
Jeremiah- offended by cussing.
When I first starting coming to Xenos, my biggest point of conflict with the group was not the smoking. My problem did not lie with the group’s condoning of alcohol or the absence of a singing worship meeting. I already was a smoker and took an occasional nightcap, and in my former church I sang enough worship choruses and hymns to fill my mind with a loop tape of “Lord I Lift Your Name on High” until the day I die, so I wasn’t mourning that loss either.
My singular biggest problem with the Xenos fellowship was the cussing. I mentioned this to my wife on several occasions.
“They might be OK in everything else they do,” I allowed, “but they cuss.” On that point all their planted seeds and the harvested fruit was swept away in one wave of my fundamentalist-hand.
Her response was one of grace tempered with logic.
“Well,” she began, “when someone comes around who has never heard of Christ or does not know how to love, we focus on the way they relate to people, not whether or not they cuss.”
I had to buckle on this point. What rational person would not? However, I still secretly maintained my stoic attitude that “Christians mustn’t cuss.”
Why did I think cussing was so important? Partly because we were not raised around cussing. Mom and Dad were very strict on this point. I’m not sure it had much to do with anything biblical. They felt that nice people didn’t cuss, and we are nice people, so we don’t cuss.
In church I think the attitude was basically the same: Christians are supposed to be nice people. Nice people don’t cuss. DON’T CUSS! Cussing was called all sorts of scary names to make it sound really terrible, like “foul language,” “obscenities,” “cursing,” and other pseudonyms which really miss the mark for any kind of meaningful description.
We sound like dorks. Christians look at the alienation of people from Christ, and instead of thinking “I’m fucking reaching these people if it kills me,” we say, “this isn’t nice.” Instead of looking at the real relational abuse so prevalent from person to person, we say, “This stinks,” not, “this is bullshit!”
Paul’s Cussing
The apostle Paul was no stranger to harsh language. He was of the people, by the people and for Christ. His attitude was such that he concluded:
“Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ…” (Philippians 3:8)
Do you know what the Greek word is that’s translated “garbage” in this verse? It’s the word “skubalon,” which, roughly translated to English, means “shit.”
Cuss words, like all words, have the capacity to edify as well as the capacity to tear down. Cussing is a both-and, not an either-or.
When Christians make a big case out of cussing, it moves the conversation away from grace. It also creates an uptight atmosphere in so many churches. The fucked-up thing is that a lot of Christians don’t take the time to examine for themselves exactly what the Bible says about cussing, and why it says it. Conforming to the status quo exists in the church, too, people!
Ephesians 5:4
The verse frequently given to young Christians to get them away from that terrible, awful, no good cussing-habit is Ephesians 5:4 which says:
“Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes- these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God.”
I don’t see any mention of cussing in there. And the verse says the goal is to have language that expresses “thankfulness to God.” I know people who don’t cuss. Whoopty-fucking-doo. But they also aren’t thankful, grateful, joyful, or any other kind of “ful” toward God. Except they do seem “resentful” because they’re so legalistic. Does it really matter if they don’t cuss?
In this much-abused verse from Ephesians 5, I think it’s important to look at the original Greek to understand what the writer was trying to get across. Do other translations include “cussing” in that short list of things not to talk about? Let’s see:
The three Greek words used in this passage from Ephesians are aisxrothv, mwrologiða and eutrapeliða. Literally, they mean filthy obscenity, foolish talking and ribaldry (sexually suggestive or grotesque), respectively. Now I’m no professor of language but it seems to me that it just doesn’t automatically follow that all use of cusswords will result in these things, even though cussing can be used to accomplish all these things. Cussing can be obscene! Cussing can be used to talk foolishly! Cussing can be used to graphically describe sexuality!
What Really Matters
Some Christians might be preparing gnashing their teeth at me at this point. But let me just say that I am not arguing that everyone should cuss! And I’m not arguing that cussing is always appropriate!I am not addressing the rules of decorum and socially-appropriate behavior. I’m merely trying to show that, biblically speaking, there is no mandate to claim that a Christian should never, ever, ever cuss.
Sometimes as Christians we need to think about things a little more critically. Are we creating rules about “the rules”? The battle cry of the Institutional Church seems to be “We need more rules!”
Well I, for one, am very fucking tired of that bullshit. Now grab your hymnals and turn to page 359, where we’ll sing “On a hill far away stood an old rugged cuss.”
I agree that cussing is not a spiritual issue. I do think it makes people look stupid in many cases, however. I typically do not cuss when I teach because I don’t think it adds anything to my teachings. I once witness a rebuke with someone giving another brother speech laden with cussing. It made the person sound really stupid and made the rebuke rather ineffective.
It’s also good for me not to cuss in more formal situations to avoid a slip-up in other situations, especially in the educaton world.
I do use cussing in dialogue with others and sometimes even in spiritual discussions, but usually not if they are discussions of intense personal nature.
Cussing is one of those strange areas in our culture where you shouldn’t normally employ it in public addresses, but it’s normal (and expected) to employ it in friendly/relaxed conversations. Why is this?
Well, I don’t know who *YOU* hang around, Mr. “Smooth”, but none of *MY* friends would “expect” a cuss-word-laden conversation. You may need to stop hanging around with the gutter-bums.
Thanks, brother, for your loving concern. But if I were to take your advice, I would become a Christian snob! (Which you say–below–was not preferable).
I am prettty sure that our Lord and Saviour hung out with the “gutter-bums”.
It’s because we’re so fake to everyone; politically correct. Don’t actually say your feelings/thoughts, just feign a smile and do what you need to do. You can cuss when venting to a friend, but be civil all the time, everywhere else. It’s not even civility because you care about strangers, it’s just so that you aren’t bothered. You know, a ‘mind your own business’ mentality. Do you have to cuss to strangers? I don’t think so, but the whole “no cussing” attitude can lead on to “no real openness”. I guess a different question is: Is there a way we can really respect and be compassionate with strangers without being fake? I guess if we take our minds off of ourselves, it may happen. Does that involve cussing? Can we be ‘real’ with people?
Hey “Ad” (?) this is really insightful, I think, because in my opinion the fakery and pleasant/insincere smiles and nicey-nice-rosey-crap (oops, was that a cussword?) is far more alienating than any cuss-words I’ve ever encountered among Christians.
I hear far more complaints about the *HYPOCRISY* people see at church than complaints about “uncouth” language! I say, “If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands!” — and conversely, “If you’re a pagan and you know it, feel free to cuss around us! We’re not snobs about it!”
Cussing memories: Noah lets the F bomb drop in OASIS soon after we first start attending NeoXenos. All I can stammer, as I hear of this “event” is “I’m so proud.” Praise God that grace abounds and the law is abolished.
I’m not in any position to put down people who cuss. However, I think the argument that it isn’t a moral or spiritual issue is questionable. Eischrotes from Eph. 1 means obscenity, which would probably include using the F word. Also swearing or using God’s name in vain is definitely taught against in the Old and New Testaments because it shows disrespect. Then there’s the issue of how extreme one’s language is. I’ve had non-Christian guests come to home church and point out that the language was worse than what they hear in their place of work or school. This gets truer the older people are. In corporate culture, cussing is not cool. In college and High, it is.
Profanity–the use of words that aren’t genteel–probably not even biblically an issue. As you point out, that is seen in the Bible itself.
A final issue to consider–Christians who try to show how non-fundy they are by using the F word as often as possible. I think that looks pretty foolish. Sharp secular people can tell this is someone who has something to prove. They’re posing.
I think a certain amount of restraint is good, without getting condemning about it.
But I’ve worked on construction sites where cussing among the adult (middle-aged men) is so rampant, I wondered if their vocab extended much beyond the “Big 7″ cuss-words. Isn’t it often a socio-economic ethic? I’ve witnessed to blue collar dudes who think they can’t even come to a Christian meeting because they know they’ll probably offend the Christians with their language. At this point, I think Christians need to take a reality check on the importance of this thing–especially when Christian politeness becomes so rigid, it’s a prerequisite to attendance.
Yeah, blue collar people cuss like crazy. But in white collar culture, it’s not cool.
How do you distinguish between “profanity” and “obscenity”? I’m not sure I’ve encountered this distinction before.
But you bring up a good point, Den, because there is a distinction: “Eischrotes” in Eph. 5:4 is more like “Porno-Talk”, and most certainly very sexually-debasing. Donna’s example, below, would certainly match “Eischrotes”. I like the NLT’s translation as “Obscene stories”, which communicates something quite sexually-oriented, not just a flippant word.
I do agree with you, Jeremiah, that the best criteria of “stepping over the line” is decided by the company we keep. Like, “WTF” — is this “profanity” or “obscenity” ?
Certainly if we’re unable to control our mouths to keep from offending whatever company we find ourselves with, this is problematic.
“A final issue to consider–Christians who try to show how non-fundy they are by using the F word as often as possible. I think that looks pretty foolish. Sharp secular people can tell this is someone who has something to prove. They’re posing.”
I like that comment Dennis, I was trying to get at that.
Also, I don’t know if “cussing” which is probably short for cursing is necessarily the same thing as profanity or obscenity is well. If you say “I just shit my pants” you’re not really cursing anything.
I agree with your comment, Dennis, insofar as you have mentioned the questionable nature of cussing as an amoral issue. I also agree with your assessment that it is never a good idea to use the name of God in a loose way.
It seems that any issue of a moral bent would also possess a spiritual bent and that the converse would also be true.
In my blog I do not argue in favor of cussing as the result of a conviction that it is amoral. In fact I feel quite the opposite.
Oswald Chambers had a test for his reader to apply to everything they might be willing to say.
1. Is it true?
2. Is it necessary?
3. Is it kind?
All which is true and kind is necessary.
All which is kind and necessary must be true.
All which is necessary and true can be said kindly.
If it fails one of the tests, restraint is in order.
But what about cussing, in which case the point of restraint in considering that question relies, in my opinion, entirely on a relative code of situational ethics.
In the case of the home church which cusses to such an extent that it begins to alienate those newly in attendance, this is certainly a problem. But the issue is cussing as a means of alienation. Is the solution to the problem to eliminate cussing completely? Without any more information on the case at hand, I would venture to say that the home church in question has more problems than the quantity of cussing that goes on during a meeting and that the cussing, being the most high-profile “wrong” action, garners the most attention because it is the most noticeable.
I appreciate how you mention the extremity of language, although I assume you are referring to an extreme of “liberal = bad,” rather than an extreme of “conservative = good.”
I grew up living under a yoke of extreme language- extremely conservative. It alienated people much the same way they have been alienated in your tale of the cussing home church. Cussing by anyone was simply not permitted. In one case a youth group member brought several school chums on a ski trip. One chum said something was “shitty.” The reaction this evoked from several of the senior high girls was undesirable. They leaped upon him like language lions in a cage full of letter zebras. He emerged legless and shredded, never to return to our church.
My point is that the extremes go both ways.
It not “good” to cuss but neither is it “bad” to cuss. You point out the aspects of propriety concerning cussing and this is a good point, albeit a very complicated one which is why I did not try to address it in my blog.
It sounds like Oswald’s “3 rules” are a little stifling, to me. So if I ask someone to “pass the catchup”, and it really isn’t necessary because I could get it myself, and it’s probably an intrusion to their eating and therefore not really too “kind”, is this questionable speech? And do we have to ask ourselves these 3 questions all the time? I think I would go gonzo-mad!
But that was a good article you wrote, Jeremiah.
Then your issue is with Oswald Chambers, not me.
Only you can answer the question as to whether you’re intruding or unkind in that mode of communication.
Another illustration comes to mind from the comic “Calvin and Hobbes.”
Calvin asks, “Why do we think faster than we talk?”
Hobbes responds, “Probably so we can think twice.”
Yeah, good article, brother.
My main issue with cussing is the effect it can have on our young people. It so easily becomes a habit – and if a young person has picked up the habit from and with his/her Xenos buddies and cusses in another environment, such as school, they are f***ed. Our language is so rich and varied, there are many ways to express ourselves other than swearing.
I do not think it is appropriate to hear an adult tell a young person “F*** you!, no matter how relaxed the environment is. If (and when – because it will probably happen), my grandchildren tell me to F*** Off, the old fashioned bar of soap will come out! And, mom and dad will just have to f***ing deal with it!
I have had a more difficult time curbing the G Damn it and Jesus Christ from my vocabulary (when used in anger or frustration). Maybe I’m frustrated because I don’t release my emotions enough by cussing, but a big Geezy Pete sometimes works just as well.
I have seen comments on Basecamp that almost made my hair curl – and I’m a product of the 60’s. (And, I know the people making the comments and love them lots). However, a new Xenoid or someone checking us out, could be highly offended. I was particularly offended by the comment that “all women are C**TS!” I had some pretty dicey responses to that – but didn’t think it was appropriate to respond to a young man in like fashion.
So, Jimminy Cricket, this is my opinion.
It sounds like someone on your “Basecamp” is a real looser, Donna Urban! Give that person the old “bar of soap” right up where the sun don’t shine next time you see ‘em!!
See now, I think that “sun don’t shine” comment is unnecessarily rude and crude and socially-unacceptable. Couldn’t you have said, “Stick it in their mouths” and made the same point?
I just want to point out that swearing is a big part of american culture. pg-13 movies has swearing in it which are considered appropriate for 13 yr old kids. Swearing can be heard on evening sitcoms although they may not be as “harsh” as others. Cussing is on the airwaves in songs and dj’s and is also in video games. Can we really get away from it? Things that make you go hmmm.
Are there certain words that some people consider to be bad or beneath them? Is that a judgement against the person saying these “cuss” words? Are we gonna hide in a box if people cuss?
What is the difference between cussing, cursing, profanity and swearing anyway and who decided this??? Also, who decided what words are these “social taboos”????
I agree we should not speak anything against God and other people to harm them with our language. I also believe the bible tells us to encourage and build one another up with our words. Is it possible to encourage someone and have cuss words in it? I think so. God is Fucking Awesome. God knows what my heart is when i say that and if you are current with younger culture you would understand the emphasis too (and its not just high school and college age).
I believe Paul answers the dilemma of cussing or not cussing around the lost – 1 Cor 9:19-23
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
NASU
Like Chuck Knoll said “whatever it takes”! although i would add “whatever it takes but without compromise on the true gospel of Christ.
So do we change in our culture, with our culture to reach them or do we let the Kosmos and the establishment dictate this bullshit about the importance of words in society and be used divisively among God’s children? If we are seeking to bring glory to God His Spirit will guide our speech to the need of the moment and to recieve His grace if we step out of line with our words.
I would also point out you can tear someone a “new asshole” without using one cuss word and it is far more damaging then FUCK.
Whateve!!!
Get over it, its a word, I am moved by a name… JESUS!!!
cussing’s sweet!
Smalley, you need a bar of soap stuck somewhere too.
Yea Yea Yea, Nice people don’t wear goofy tattoos either.
I don’t understand this comment.
Is this really a discussion on the relative merits of cussing for Jesus followers? I’m not even a Christian and I think I have a pretty good handle on what’s appropriate in different contexts.
I’ve also had the experience that Dennis recounts of being around adults from Xenos (usually around a fire) who sound like they’re trying hard to sound cool by dropping the f-bomb all the time, when in reality, for most folks that kind of talk usually stops sometime around the summer between 11th & 12th grades (construction sites and hillbilly bars notwithstanding). It’s like seeing a 60 year old woman in a mini-skirt = trying way too hard and just doesn’t make sense.
I say, act your age, and use a thesaurus to find some more adjectives if you’re lacking vocabulary.
I appreciate your comments, Samuel.
Certainly I would never even hint at the possibility (in any of my writings) that the only moral people are Christians or that the only people able to realize social norms and mores are Christians.
Like you, I am also disturbed to see someone acting in a way that seems far beyond the necessity of the immediate context.
I do wonder, however, how you define “what’s appropriate in different contexts.”
What is the standard for contextual propriety?
Please understand my goal is not to be argumentative- I only want to interact more with you on this material.
I can appreciate your last comment, “Act your age, and use a thesaurus…” although I wonder at what age it is best to tell people to act their age instead of another age?
My last sentence is a little confusing, so I am going to clarify what I meant.
I meant to ask what age is the best age to tell people to act?
I don’t get the connection between cussing and being “real” with people. I could just as easily be real with people by scratching my crotch in their presence, but what’s the point? I think being “real” is the depth of the interaction. I can cuss and scratch, but does that tell you who I am?
Well Donna, I’m not sure if you’re being facetious or not with that, but if you could just as easily be real with people by scratching your crotch in their presence, that is the point of doing it- it succeeds just as much as the other thing you could do.
Something tells me you (personally) could never be as real with people by scratching your crotch as by not scratching your crotch.
Cussing and scratching only tells me who you are if those are the only ways you know how to communicate.
Frankly, my dear, I just don’t give a damn!
talk about a discussion! i love how the simple concept of cussing attracts so much attention, more from christians than non-christians…
Hey Jeremiah,
Fascinating article. I’m in the middle of studying, but your article and some of the comments that I skimmed welled up in me a desire to dialogue.
Basically, the question boils down to morality. Is it good, bad, or indifferent to curse? First, I don’t think there is such thing as anything that is indifferent or adiaphora. We can speak of nonmoral goodness or teleological goodness such as a bad brakes or the evil pain I get when I’m constipated (sigh). Why do I say that such indifference does not exist? My main text comes from 1 Cor 10:31 which states, “Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.” I don’t think you’ll disagree with me here since you seem to be a Christian and value Scripture.
Now you may say, “I glorify God because I can edify people while using curse words.” Let’s put that statement to the test.
Does God’s revelation, whether general or special, reveal that cursing is good or evil (Remember, there is no indifference. Nothing is neutral with God). Scripture is not clear about cursing, but so are abortion, slavery, and trinity (I must state though “garbage” in Phil 3:8 is not translated as you have. The “rough” translation stretches it beyond what Paul had meant. Your translation covered Paul’s word with your cultural baggage which was excrement=sh*t when really excrement=excrement). But Scripture is sufficient for all of life in that we can logically deduce everything that pertains to life from the principles of God’s revealed Word coupled with natural revelation. When we deal with ethical dilemmas that are not clear, one way to solve the problem is looking at the situation. Regarding cursing, we can put that situation as our culture.
Culture determines what is cursing. A Korean can hear an english curse word and not be phased by it, and I can hear a Chines curse word and not be phased by it. Curse words are defined by culture, and by definition, curse words are that which inflame. Now as culture changes, words tend to change. Crap used to be a curse word, now it’s not to most people. But words such as sh*t and others are considered as curse words to most Americans even if they are used nonchalantly among many people (If you disagree, why do G rated films contain no curse words while higher rated films do?) And since by definition curse words are inflammatory, it is not good. It does not bring glory to God (1 Cor 10:31). Hence, it is evil, and you can’t use an evil mean to edify someone to the glory of God. That is like saying the ends justify the means. We can use whatever is necessary to bring glory to God. Scripture would forbid such thing.
To answer Wonder, such subjectivity is detrimental to our faith. The statement “God knows my heart” is used to justify so many things. Well God does know our hearts, and it’s desperately wicked (Rom 3:11-18). Furthermore, “Get over it, its a word, I am moved by a name… JESUS!!!” For someone who seems to propound a good heart (previous statement), his heart seems rather hard. Furthermore, who is this Jesus that Wonder seems to be moved by? When the Corinthian church was being divided, some also said I follow Christ. But can we have such division in the body of Christ by using Christ’s name as a dividing force? For us to say we are committed to Jesus, we have to know who he is. We have to follow the God of revelation and not the God of our imagination (quote of Dr. Joe Davis). And this Jesus, this triune God, who has revealed to us his Word and himself through nature would disagree that what is inflammatory brings glory to God.
I usually don’t comment on the internet because this form of communication obscures so much meaning that is supposed to be tied to the speech. So if you or even Wonder think that I have said any of this to argue or ridicule, I would like to say that that wasn’t my intention. I hope I was able to contribute to this post.
Your brother in Christ,
Yoon
I appreciate your comments.
Unfortunately I think you’re equivocating the words “Objectively wrong” with “Culturally impolite,” and built your whole argument on this assumption.
I had a couple chores to attend to earlier so I didn’t have the time to address your comment with the attention it deserves.
You make some good points. I certainly would never intentionally try to detract from God’s glory- either general or specific, tied to His revelation or inferred from what is explicit.
I appreciate your reference to 1 Corinthians, that whatever we do brings glory to God in one way or another.
I am not intending to make light of your striations but I think it is worth mentioning that if you extrapolate that to be all-encompassing, life takes on a whole new (and in my opinion) horrible twist. I have composed a short list of actions which previously we may have committed with no compunction whatsoever but now must be done with the mindset that it either is or is not glorifying to God. If it is not, the Christian should immediately readjust his or her attitude to be in keeping with their knowledge of Christ’s sacrifice:
1. Clipping your toenails
2. Putting air in your car tire
3. Urinating
4. Turning on a water faucet
5. Changing the toner cartridge in a copier
6. Reading the comics in the newspaper
7. Sorting the laundry- (this has the greatest potential for spiritual significance, as the “darks” and the “lights” really seem to speak of a spiritual struggle. I’ll probably think of it from now on as separating the “Saints” ((Romans 1:7)) from “The spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places” ((Ephesians 6:12)) Extra soap for the darks from now on.)
8. Raising the window shade
9. Making a sandwich
10. Sharpening a pencil
Obviously this isn’t an exhaustive list. I figured 10 examples would be enough to give you an idea of the ramifications of such a micro-interpretive philosophical framework.
What I’m really driving at here is the idea that some things are more important than others. It seems like you’re attaching the same morality to “Cussing” as you would to an inability to love or serve others.
The end result of your philosophy- and I understand what you’re saying, I’m not making fun of you either- but it seems to be somewhat “Law” oriented- that the Christian should micromanage their life and make sure that EVERY SINGLE action- from abortion to tying their shoelaces- brings glory to God.
I might be completely misunderstanding and missing your point.
If I’m not, then I think a suitable response is found in Galatians 2:18-19
“Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God.”
Love your comment Jeremiah.
Hey Jeremiah,
Thanks for that insightful comment. You are a sharp guy, and I’m glad you’re on the side of Christ.
I can’t comment much (I have lots of homework, reading, and studying to do), so I’ll leave a few thoughts in the hope that I can come back and try to expound on them.
My central thesis can be stated that what is objectively wrong is sin. I think you can agree with me on that. Here is where you might disagree.
I believe that some sins are universal whereas some sins are culturally relative such as cursing. I think I explained the why in the previous post.
Also, all of life is to be God-glorifying, and I don’t think this is bad nor is it extrapolating.
First, there is no category of adiaphora, and not all choices are between good and evil such as clipping or not clipping your nails. So I agree with you that there are degrees of importance. And I think it’s a miscommunication on our part that I equate cussing with the inability to love or serve others.
I was thinking about how this applies… Let’s take my body posture while reading. I can lean to the left or to the right. I think both choices are good; they are not harming my body or keeping me from studying (Which I should do well to glorify God since he has called me to be a student). Now in this state, I’m not consciously glorifying God. I don’t have to (This is where the whole toenail clipping and the “extrapolation” of the passage comes into play).
This is because Christians glorify God in many ways at any given time.
First, he/she glorifies God ontologically, or in his being as one redeemed by Christ. So whether I sleep or do mundane things like sorting the laundry, I glorify God in my being (BTW, very clever on laundry example ^^).
Second, he glorifies God teleologically, or in purpose as he does things that are not evil.
Third, she glorifies God existentially, or in the self (similar to but different with being) through emotions, attitude, etc.
Cursing, even done with right intentions (the existential perspective), is sin because it violates the purpose (the teleological perspective) and also God’s command (the normative perspective). Our point of disagreement is probably here with the purpose and command. And this is where my argument that cursing is a cultural sin applies.
For clear communication, I want to clear up that glorifying God in all of life is micromanaging.
But there is also an aspect in contemporary Christianity (and it’s been historical in many aspects) that deemphasizes the law. The law is a good thing; Paul agrees in Romans (No time to search). Also, a question I will expound more later. Does the law include no blessings and the gospel include no obligations (Frame, “The Doctrine of the Christian Life). Yet, we’re under the law of Christ, and even Jesus made the law harsher by correctly interpreting adultery and divorce. Yet, if we use Gal 2:18-19 as a proof-text, we end up with no law. But Paul wrote that about the function of works in salvation and not about works done in life.
I’ll try to come back in the near future to expound on this. Thanks for the insightful reply, and once again, I’m glad that you’re on the side of Christ. In fact, you sound like a guy I could glean a lot from regarding relating with unbelievers in our community. That might be a good post or at least I would love to talk to you about it.
In Christ,
Yoon
Oops, glorifying God in all of life is NOT micromanaging. Phew…
Paul even chose something like toenail clipping, eating and drinking, to make the point that we should glorify God in all things.
I understand your comment, Yoon. It would appear that we have a similar way of thinking and talking.
Unfortunately I am not formally educated in logic, philosophy and theology so some of your more abstract ideas are a little beyond my knowledge.
I can’t really interact with you meaningfully on the idea of “Teleological Glorification” because it’s a bit outside my academic jurisdiction.
You don’t need to expound on it. It already sounds too dry and has a ring of theoretical academia.
I’m interested in things that are truly meaningful in an existential way. Christianity has a lot to say about existential dilemmas, both for the Christian and non.
I think I’ll just say that it would appear you consider “cussing” permissible but not beneficial while I consider it both permissible and beneficial. Again, I have to bring back the idea of objective moral values- we’ve (unnecessarily) agreed they exist. But the problem is when a person layers their own (subjective) conservative sense of things onto objectivity. I obviously wouldn’t argue that cussing is objectively right and not cussing is a sin.
I’m only trying to say that it’s a stupid nothing that people spend too much time talking about when so many other things aren’t getting accomplished.
j
Hey Jeremiah,
Sorry about not responding. I’ve been swamped with papers and exams. I was hoping to expound on it, so that the communication could’ve been clearer, but alas, I just couldn’t find the time.
People shouldn’t assume that theory and/or academia is dry. Everything at its root has theory, and it has profound implications for and in our lives.
You’re right that Christianity has a lot to say about existential dilemmas. Truly our God is the redeemer of all of life. I hope you continually make a difference in people’s lives in that aspect. But also, there are more aspects to Christianity that the existential perspective. We should all strive to be well-rounded Christians for the glory of our amazing God.
Actually, I don’t find cussing permissible. I find cussing to be objectively wrong but the words and manners culturally defined. I see your point that people can lay their subjective conservative sense of things onto other people as if they are objective. That happens. The question is whether the issue is subjective or objective. I would say cursing is objectively wrong, which your second to last sentence seems to be agreeing…
I see truth in your last statement, but if we’re trying to be holy as God is holy, I think this issue is profound. It affects our relationship with God, our image to other people as Christians, and other areas that it reaches in issues such as church unity, values, culture, and so on. I think Christians need to talk about issues such as this with care and time while also not neglecting other “big” issues of our lives.
Sorry once again that I couldn’t expound. My intention wasn’t to make it seem “technical” and “over the top.” I was hoping to clear it up soon, but that soon never came. I accidentally committed “intellectual bullying” as Dr. Greg Bahnsen puts it. Secular philosophers do it to Christians to overwhelm them and make their faith look stupid, and I must’ve seemed like them. For that I sincerely apologize and ask you for your forgiveness.
Thanks Jeremiah for your time. You stretched me, and I enjoyed our dialogue. I hope that we may continually glorify God in our lives and endure to the end whether we cross paths again or not.
Your brother in Jesus,
Yoon