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	<title>Comments on: Rebellion, Conformity or Victory</title>
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	<description>The grace of God has appeared...</description>
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		<title>By: name</title>
		<link>http://neozine.org/inside/78/comment-page-1#comment-1876</link>
		<dc:creator>name</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neozine.org/blog/2007/06/01/rebellion-and-conformity/#comment-1876</guid>
		<description>best of the best it is,...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>best of the best it is,</p>
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		<title>By: neozine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Reality Parenting</title>
		<link>http://neozine.org/inside/78/comment-page-1#comment-200</link>
		<dc:creator>neozine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Reality Parenting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 00:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neozine.org/blog/2007/06/01/rebellion-and-conformity/#comment-200</guid>
		<description>[...] need Permanent Love Values to victoriously sustain the pressures of life, as we studied in "Re...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] need Permanent Love Values to victoriously sustain the pressures of life, as we studied in &quot;Rebellion and Conformity.&quot; We live by those values for a long, long time, even into marriage: You start with a foundational [...]</p>
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		<title>By: neozine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Healing Punks and Sissies</title>
		<link>http://neozine.org/inside/78/comment-page-1#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator>neozine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Healing Punks and Sissies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neozine.org/blog/2007/06/01/rebellion-and-conformity/#comment-194</guid>
		<description>[...] need Permanent Love Values to victoriously sustain the pressures of life, as we studied in "Re...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] need Permanent Love Values to victoriously sustain the pressures of life, as we studied in &quot;Rebellion and Conformity.&quot;&#160; We live by those values for a long, long time, even into marriage: You start with a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: love ethics &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Healing Punks and Sissies</title>
		<link>http://neozine.org/inside/78/comment-page-1#comment-193</link>
		<dc:creator>love ethics &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Healing Punks and Sissies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neozine.org/blog/2007/06/01/rebellion-and-conformity/#comment-193</guid>
		<description>[...] need Permanent Love Values to victoriously sustain the pressures of life, as we studied in "Re...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] need Permanent Love Values to victoriously sustain the pressures of life, as we studied in &quot;Rebellion and Conformity.&quot;&#160; We live by those values for a long, long time, even into marriage: You start with a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah.r</title>
		<link>http://neozine.org/inside/78/comment-page-1#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah.r</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 02:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neozine.org/blog/2007/06/01/rebellion-and-conformity/#comment-104</guid>
		<description>hi! keith. this article made me think of a quote i really like which i actually posted on the mikhal...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi! keith. this article made me think of a quote i really like which i actually posted on the mikhalek quote board.</p>
<p>&#8220;Everywhere and at all times, the love ethic of Jesus is a radiant light revealing the ugliness of our stale conformity.&#8221;</p>
<p>it&#8217;s from a book called Strength to Love which is basically seven sermons by martin luther king,jr.</p>
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		<title>By: lisa_beech</title>
		<link>http://neozine.org/inside/78/comment-page-1#comment-108</link>
		<dc:creator>lisa_beech</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neozine.org/blog/2007/06/01/rebellion-and-conformity/#comment-108</guid>
		<description>I'm glad you posted this.  I hope that my struggle can benefit others.

Katey is so right. I am so s...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you posted this.  I hope that my struggle can benefit others.</p>
<p>Katey is so right. I am so short sighted in not &#8220;seeing&#8221; the spiritual battle aspect of this confrontation.  I have been &#8220;feeling&#8221; responsible for my mother&#8217;s problems; I also do struggle with believing her absurd statements that I am responsible for her health problems &#8211; This is a difficult one as she has convinced many that I am the source of her suffering.  I fear being rejected and despised by my own family (brother, cousins, etc). Christ did warn His followers of this reality in Mt 10 as did Paul in 2 Timothy.</p>
<p>&#8220;Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.&#8221;  2 Timothy 3:12</p>
<p>I have been feeling like a &#8220;bad &amp; mean person&#8221; and I have been fearful of causing yet more trouble for her. I am struggling with pursuing her  through initiation &#8211; I have been growing weary.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, I am encouraged that I am on the right track.  The GEARS thing seems doable &#8211; definitely an endeavor of the spirit &#8211; patience with regard to time is something I can lack. Patience and prayerful contemplation is godly wisdom. Thank you.</p>
<p>Again, thank you and Katey for your guidance and above all for the words of encouragement. I can grow discouraged and lose sight of the goal of godly reconciliation.  I am conditioned to cave to her &#8220;love demands.&#8221;</p>
<p>She is so difficult to get a hold of &#8211; soon she will be in Michigan without a phone for 2 months. She likes to &#8220;get away&#8221; from everything and one.  I need to continue to initiate with her &#8211; more often than of late.  I had backed off since Mother&#8217;s Day.  Continuous silence is very discouraging and frustrating.</p>
<p>These articles are fabulous!  Keep it up.  I look forward to your next installment. I may yet survive my heart surgery.</p>
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		<title>By: Gozer</title>
		<link>http://neozine.org/inside/78/comment-page-1#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>Gozer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neozine.org/blog/2007/06/01/rebellion-and-conformity/#comment-107</guid>
		<description>Y'know Lisa, you're getting "Love Demands" thrown at you here. I tried to get Katey Downs to post an...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Y&#8217;know Lisa, you&#8217;re getting &#8220;Love Demands&#8221; thrown at you here. I tried to get Katey Downs to post an answer here, but I think she only knows how to hit &#8220;Reply&#8221; on e-mail. Below is Katey&#8217;s insightful feedback, and I think she doesn&#8217;t mind me posting it here for you.</p>
<p>I think the &#8220;Redemptive Discipline&#8221; factor (below) is pretty helpful here, because you&#8217;re making a stand against love DEMANDS through Redemptive Discipline.</p>
<p>FYI, she mentions &#8220;GEARS&#8221;, which we haven&#8217;t yet explained, but I think Katey&#8217;s feedback here is tremendously insightful&#8230;but also, keep in mind she&#8217;s throwing a huge amount of content into a few paragraphs, so don&#8217;t get overwhelmed thinking all this has to occur at once&#8230;it&#8217;s more like &#8220;the direction of things to come&#8221; rather than &#8220;go tell your mom these things.&#8221; Y&#8217;know? Taking your time, understanding prayerfully, discussing, etc. is all necessary in this. But there is tremendous liberation in what she&#8217;s saying&#8230;</p>
<p>FROM KATEY DOWNS:</p>
<p>Well, here is where thinking through GEARS would be helpful.<br />
    Gracious = &#8220;Mom, our relationship has had its ups and downs.  But, through God&#8217;s grace, we do have a respect for each other.  We have agreed on some things, and disagreed on others.<br />
    Emotional =  &#8220;You are my mom.  I love you.  I want to have a good relationship with you, built on the foundation of grace and truth.&#8221;<br />
    All =    &#8220;One of the difficulties we have had is your relationship with your mother, my dad, and now my step-dad.  There are hurts there that you may need to consider working through.  That is your part.  My part is that I love my grandma.  I love my dad.  And, I have no ill feelings against my step dad.  I think these are the things that you say are affecting your health.  We have talked before about your bitterness with each of them.  I don&#8217;t have bitterness against them.<br />
    Redemptive Discipline = You have said that it is my fault that you have bad health.  I don&#8217;t accept that.  And I don&#8217;t accept that our relationship has to be on your terms.  So, from now on, if you need to talk about dad or grandma or (stepdad&#8217;s name), I am going to direct you back to them to get resolved.  I will not listen to your complaints about them or your health until you take steps to resolve with those people.<br />
    Sacrificial Love =  I realize that you may decide not to have anything to do with me, like you did your mother.  I do not want that; however, I am willing to suffer that lose for your sake.  And, I also realize that you may threaten not to see your grandkids again.  That would break my heart.  I will continue to call you and invite you over to the house, but our relationship will not be on your terms anymore.</p>
<p>    Keith:  Here again, Lisa is going to have to think through what would be the most redemptive approach to her mom would be, knowing that she is risking the relationship &#8211; and for a time, that may have to be the cost. However, even if her mom decided not to have anything to do with Lisa or the grandkids, Lisa still has the love authority to initiate toward her mom.  The spiritual growth part would be trusting in God to help her with the words and going through the spiritual battle of FEELING like a mean person who is forcing her mom to get angry or whatever.  She has to be convinced that she is not responsible for her mother&#8217;s anger or bitterness and as the love-giver is trying to show her a better way.</p>
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		<title>By: lisabeech</title>
		<link>http://neozine.org/inside/78/comment-page-1#comment-106</link>
		<dc:creator>lisabeech</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neozine.org/blog/2007/06/01/rebellion-and-conformity/#comment-106</guid>
		<description>I was 17 years old.  My mother and grandmother had not seen eachother in 5 or more years.  I had not...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was 17 years old.  My mother and grandmother had not seen eachother in 5 or more years.  I had not seen my grandmother in over 7 years &#8211; maybe more.  My mother would not allow us to be around her &#8220;crazy&#8221; mother.</p>
<p>Shortly before I left for college, my mom allowed me to visit with my grandma.  I was nervous &#8211; I was going to spend the weekend with this woman I barely knew &#8211; but I was curious about her and her life.  So I went.</p>
<p>I found her to be fun and interesting.  She told me many stories of her childhood &#8211; of her broken relationship with her mother. She shared her regrets and her joys with me.  I am brought to tears as I recall this weekend.  I was changed forever.</p>
<p>The next evening I returned home; I ran to my mother and begged her to put an end to this vicious cycle of bitterness and seperation.  I wanted the chain to be broken. I did not want to live seperated from her as she and her mother were.  I already saw the same pattern building between us.</p>
<p>Since that day, my relationship with my mom was smooth &#8211; as long as I lived as she deemed &#8220;right.&#8221;  Whenever I lived apart from her will I was rejected &#8211; shunned &#8211; ingored.  For years I would either ignore her and accept her wrath or run to her &#8211; doing &#8220;whatever&#8221; was necessary to be acceptable again &#8211; often pleading for forgiveness for my &#8220;deemed wrongs.&#8221;</p>
<p>As I grew in my relationship with Christ, I have confronted my mother through out the years;  I have addressed the bitterness of her heart. She would always become angry and would deflect the issue by asking &#8220;if I spoke to my father &#8211; her ex &#8211; in that manner.&#8221;  I told her he was not the issue- she was full of rage and hatred; it was consuming her.</p>
<p>These confrontations were rough at times but she seemed to &#8220;get over&#8221; them and continued our relationship. She never did forgive my father. Nonetheless, we seemed to grow closer as she helped me with my babies &#8211; I needed help so desperately.  She loved me.</p>
<p>So, I picked up my family and moved to be near my mother.  She promised to help Steve and I with all the boys.  Evan was 6 and Henry was almost 1 year old.  I was very tired and needed her support.</p>
<p>Then, all hell broke out &#8211; my mom and my step dad were getting a divorce.  Lies were exposed and I was left stunned in the wake of their battle.  I loved them both.  I was not willing to side with one over the other.  My mom deems me a traitor to her Tribe.  I did not run and change my plans to go to one family gathering, I still see my step father, I still love my father and help him, I acknowledge that she too had faults in her marriage and in how she raised my half-brother.  I confront her on her bitterness and I ask questions about things that happened in our past.</p>
<p>With the aforementioned in mind, I quote the following:</p>
<p>1. For the Christian, this means going to great lengths to demonstrate a strong affirmation of the God-delegated authority in the Tribe. ( I had pointed my mother to God&#8217;s authority for 15 or more years.)</p>
<p> 2. The Christian also must make it known in a clear but non-threatening fashion what is wrong in the Tribe. (I thought I was none threatening &#8211; we spoke together calmly without agruing most of the time &#8211; although I never won her to God&#8217;s perspective.)</p>
<p>3. When the Christian raises the issues in the Tribe, it must be in a constructive, helpful fashion and not as a tongue-lashing. ( I tried to be helpful &#8211; who wants someone they love to be a slave to bitterness and Steve and I loved her often by helping her with what ever she asked and though speaking truth to her.)</p>
<p>4. So too the Christian must stand on the clear issue and solution backed by the authority of God’s Word, and be prepared to refuse the arguments and other manipulative attempts to change the agenda. (I probably have failed here.  I am not very strong at resisting her barbs and tactics.  I do have a sharp tongue. Although I did stand firm that I would not hate another person for her sake &#8211; as she begged me to do.)</p>
<p>5. It requires a certain strength of character, a certain godly power to bite the tongue and fill the air with thick silence. ( Who me silent?)</p>
<p>So here I am today, not wanting to give in to the tantrum of my mother.  My mother claims that her doctors say I a responsible for her poor health.  Her health would decline during my visits &#8211; this is what she told me.  I want to relate with her, but how can I when she has a &#8220;prescription&#8221; to avoid her horrible daughter.  I desire a relationship and I have written to her concerning what has transpired between us. I write that I would like to discuss our relationship and that I want to see her.  I invite her to visit, I have offered to take her out to dinner, and I have invited her to come to the kid&#8217;s activities.  She responded to only one offer.  That was to have my children over to her house on her terms when she wanted to see them.  I allowed her to see them. I want my children to know their grandmother.</p>
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		<title>By: Carrie</title>
		<link>http://neozine.org/inside/78/comment-page-1#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neozine.org/blog/2007/06/01/rebellion-and-conformity/#comment-105</guid>
		<description>Awesome article.  It reminds me of a book I read that discusses the walls we build during our childh...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome article.  It reminds me of a book I read that discusses the walls we build during our childhood tribal time and how damaging these walls are to our maturing growth.  The book is called Hiding from Love by Townsend and I recommend it to anyone ready to dismantle those walls!</p>
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